PERMALINK
Dragging around dated, old ideas for "tradition" is like trying to apply leeches as a cure. In fact, the leeches can actually help in some cases -- but does that mean you want to make them standard medical procedure?
If you want a more interesting Western point of view on how to deal with the world without religious dogma, might I suggest the writings of Marcus Aurelius?
As far as the "adolescent" and "unfriendly" remarks, I didn't (unlike you) resort to name calling. I am here to discuss ideas. To inform and be informed. Feel free to skip my posts if you don't like them -- not all agree with your sentiments.
And I do maintain, that if a person can't conceive of charity and compassion without "religion" or the promise of heavenly reward or punishing hell after death, then that person is the adolescent.
TheraP, a worthy post from a tireless advocate of community and human dignity at all levels. I guess we have with us always the centrifugal forces that drive us apart, but we also have the centripetal ones as well that pull us toward community. Doesn't the term "religion" stems from the latin root "to bind together" after all?
November 16, 2008 1:00 PM | Permalink
TheraP, a worthy post from a tireless advocate of community and human dignity at all levels. I guess we have with us always the centrifugal forces that drive us apart, but we also have the centripetal ones as well that pull us toward community. Doesn't the term "religion" stems from the latin root "to bind together" after all?
Lux, I always learn from your comments. "Bind" can seem a negative term. But if you think of baking, then you can imagine bread with so many wonderful ingredients, kneaded together, rising, be baked. I'm not sure what phase we're in, when it comes to our society. But we sure need to recognize we are bound together. In many ways. If only we could celebrate that - and not tear at it or spoil it.
re ligium actually means to bind together once again.
(It can also in more uncommon usage mean to hang someone up again from the gallows)
(It can also in more uncommon usage mean to hang someone up again from the gallows)
Beautiful and irrefutable. In fact, newer generations of evangelicals, much to the chagrin of the dying Falwells of the movement, already seem to be embracing the deeper message of their religion beyond the bicameral rantings of Amos and Joshua and more in tune with the poetry of Ecclesiastes and the message of love of the Gospels.
I am convinced that what Christianity should emphasize is the guidance that is directed at everyone. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Judge not. Those are hard enough! And they apply to all of us.
The wonderful thing about our political system is the idea of a jury of your peers and habeas corpus. Neither of these rights are extended by the religious zealots when they condemn homosexuality. They are not peers (unless hypocritical ones). They have not used any kind of judicial process before making their charges. And indeed, they forget the words, "Judge not."
The wonderful thing about our political system is the idea of a jury of your peers and habeas corpus. Neither of these rights are extended by the religious zealots when they condemn homosexuality. They are not peers (unless hypocritical ones). They have not used any kind of judicial process before making their charges. And indeed, they forget the words, "Judge not."
another good post on this topic was from Orlando:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/love-thy-neighbor.php
But she speaks on the religious right and republicans ignoring their Teacher's own words.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/love-thy-neighbor.php
But she speaks on the religious right and republicans ignoring their Teacher's own words.
Thanks for the helpful link.
Very nice post.
I particularly appreciate this: "Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition"
Too often the Muslim is omitted, and it wasn't that many years ago in our nation that the Judeo was also omitted. The three monotheist religion each arose amongst Semitic people and share many traditions.
I particularly appreciate this: "Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition"
Too often the Muslim is omitted, and it wasn't that many years ago in our nation that the Judeo was also omitted. The three monotheist religion each arose amongst Semitic people and share many traditions.
I venerate all who sincerely follow their tradition. And do not seek to undermine any other. (And I would include those who have no faith or choose not to believe - but respect people who do. I honor that choice, so long as it does not undermine anyone else's choice.) I'm pretty impressed by anyone who prays 5 times a day!
Whatever gets one through the day.
Amen, Chris!
So, what IS the key to making these changes we all recognize, and TheraP has defined so succinctly?
Early childhood development.
Particularly providing exposure to ethnic and cultural diversity at a very young age, from 3-5 years, and continuing that multi-ethnic experience throughout our lives.
The affection and trust we form in our childhood friendships transcends all those dark angels of bigotry and prejudice. Start them young, hopefully before their pernicious relatives, neighbors and other influences (unenlightened teachers and preachers, among them) can plant the seeds of hate.
The younger the better.
It is easier to teach what is righteous from the start, than it is to reverse hateful prejudice once it has metasticized into a bigoted lifestyle.
Early childhood development.
Particularly providing exposure to ethnic and cultural diversity at a very young age, from 3-5 years, and continuing that multi-ethnic experience throughout our lives.
The affection and trust we form in our childhood friendships transcends all those dark angels of bigotry and prejudice. Start them young, hopefully before their pernicious relatives, neighbors and other influences (unenlightened teachers and preachers, among them) can plant the seeds of hate.
The younger the better.
It is easier to teach what is righteous from the start, than it is to reverse hateful prejudice once it has metasticized into a bigoted lifestyle.
I was very lucky, I guess:
In one place we lived, when I was 6, new neighbors across the street spoke Spanish. The son was my age and we were in first grade together. So by luck I was exposed to another language and culture early on. That changes your perspective on the world.
A year later we moved. And my best friend for the next few years was Jewish. That too was a wonderful learning experience, because the parents handled the religious differences by welcoming each of us to the other family's religious holidays. (I have to admit: I was jealous that she was learning Hebrew and despite the Latin Mass, no one taught me Latin! And getting presents nightly for a week also seemed better than only Christmas morning!)
.....................
Nevertheless, the hearts of adults can change. I think we have to do more here. It's a must now! We have an obligation to do what we can - to make it a shameful thing to marginalize, to dehumanize, to deny rights to others simply because they walk in different shoes.
In one place we lived, when I was 6, new neighbors across the street spoke Spanish. The son was my age and we were in first grade together. So by luck I was exposed to another language and culture early on. That changes your perspective on the world.
A year later we moved. And my best friend for the next few years was Jewish. That too was a wonderful learning experience, because the parents handled the religious differences by welcoming each of us to the other family's religious holidays. (I have to admit: I was jealous that she was learning Hebrew and despite the Latin Mass, no one taught me Latin! And getting presents nightly for a week also seemed better than only Christmas morning!)
.....................
Nevertheless, the hearts of adults can change. I think we have to do more here. It's a must now! We have an obligation to do what we can - to make it a shameful thing to marginalize, to dehumanize, to deny rights to others simply because they walk in different shoes.
I wasn't so fortunate, I grew up in north-central Iowa in the 50's, where the only people of any color we saw were on TV or in the movies.
When I was 8 we moved to Des Moines, but on the south side, it was still ethnically isolated. I did find a friend named Garza, and learned some simple Spanich in the process, but I was in a high school of almost 2000, we had only about a half-dozen blacks. Iowa was not exactly the land of ethnic diversity, far from it.
Which is why I was so proud of Iowa when they opened the caucus door for Barack Obama. My doubts that he could get the white vote were shattered forever by my own former fellow Iowans, and I'm still proud of Iowa, and always will be, for proving me so very wrong.
When I was 8 we moved to Des Moines, but on the south side, it was still ethnically isolated. I did find a friend named Garza, and learned some simple Spanich in the process, but I was in a high school of almost 2000, we had only about a half-dozen blacks. Iowa was not exactly the land of ethnic diversity, far from it.
Which is why I was so proud of Iowa when they opened the caucus door for Barack Obama. My doubts that he could get the white vote were shattered forever by my own former fellow Iowans, and I'm still proud of Iowa, and always will be, for proving me so very wrong.
And play a lot more of this kind of music for all the children, even us old ones...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lRa2Z8jIW0&eurl=http://www.last.fm/music/Felix+Mendelssohn/_/Violin+Concerto+in+E+minor,+Op.+64:+Andante
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lRa2Z8jIW0&eurl=http://www.last.fm/music/Felix+Mendelssohn/_/Violin+Concerto+in+E+minor,+Op.+64:+Andante
Oh.... the exquisite sadness and rapture!
Thank you, JEP. Amen.
Thank you, JEP. Amen.
Here we have a post that talks about the inclusiveness of religions -- all Western relgions, that is. Eastern strains of thought are forgotten. In addition to those who aren't religious at all.
The topic of religion is perhaps the most parochial topic in US Politics. Even so called "progressives" don't get it.
Bill Maher makes a significant point in his uneven movie Religulous:
Nonreglious people represent a significant minority in this country: 16% (Atheists represent 4% more than the number of Jews in the country.)
By the way, that's more than the percentage of blacks in this country.
When we will grow up as a society and stop framing things in terms of religion? Religion and morality aren't inherently linked. You don't need to pick a deity to worship to practice the golden rule and have compassion.
The topic of religion is perhaps the most parochial topic in US Politics. Even so called "progressives" don't get it.
Bill Maher makes a significant point in his uneven movie Religulous:
Nonreglious people represent a significant minority in this country: 16% (Atheists represent 4% more than the number of Jews in the country.)
By the way, that's more than the percentage of blacks in this country.
When we will grow up as a society and stop framing things in terms of religion? Religion and morality aren't inherently linked. You don't need to pick a deity to worship to practice the golden rule and have compassion.
.
Hmmmm . . .
You've made some very fine points and you may very well be a "clear thinker" -- but a thorough reader of the continuing dialog in the comments thread you're not . . .
Try going back through the thread and note:
TheraP @ November 16, 2008 4:20 PM
Just saying . . .
~OGD~
*Paddlin' through the Cafe since June 2005*
Hmmmm . . .
You've made some very fine points and you may very well be a "clear thinker" -- but a thorough reader of the continuing dialog in the comments thread you're not . . .
Try going back through the thread and note:
TheraP @ November 16, 2008 4:20 PM
Just saying . . .
~OGD~
*Paddlin' through the Cafe since June 2005*
This was written in the blog:
To define "community" on the basis of religious dogma means we are no better than our ancestors who spent their nights shivering in caves. One does not need a deity to experience of the wonder of the universe.
In order to make my claim that community is destroyed when persons are declared lacking in terms of human dignity, I am turning to the spiritual well. Indeed wells in our Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition were always considered sacred.I think the intent was clear. Indeed, her comment was mostly aimed at those who follow Muslim. Again, there is no discussion of Eastern thought -- which is more proof how biased and parochial we are in the US.
To define "community" on the basis of religious dogma means we are no better than our ancestors who spent their nights shivering in caves. One does not need a deity to experience of the wonder of the universe.
As someone who knows all forms of tai chi, and regulates my life according to taoist traditions, can recite confucius (in japanese, not chinese, but close enough) and someone who recently returned home after living in a zen monastery in Kyushu, I think I am reasonably well versed in eastern thought.
I did not feel slighted by this article. TheraP was predominantly discussing the issue on the turf of evangelical nutjobs. Therefore, we should view her counterargument in that frame.
Simply because TheraP did not mention Eastern religion and philosophy (probably due to lack of knowledge?) does not mean that her post is either narrow minded or intentionally hurtful. The reality in the US is the majority of people are informed almost entirely by Abrahamic religion. Even those who are atheist or agnostic live in a society heavily influenced by abrahamic religious literature and dogma.
Furthermore, with the possible exception of confucianism, most eastern thought works on an individual level not on a community level.
Communities are informed by cultural, not religious, values and laws in the orient. This is significantly different to what was once the case in the West. While this is not so much true now, there was a time when communities were almost entirely defined by religious association.
For someone who so rigidly espouses eastern thought, I find most of your posts tend to be somewhat adolescent, or at least your demeanor does not always come across as friendly. Your attitude is certainly not in line with my understanding of taoism.
I think we can all benefit if we work to improve discourse here, not tear it down.
I did not feel slighted by this article. TheraP was predominantly discussing the issue on the turf of evangelical nutjobs. Therefore, we should view her counterargument in that frame.
Simply because TheraP did not mention Eastern religion and philosophy (probably due to lack of knowledge?) does not mean that her post is either narrow minded or intentionally hurtful. The reality in the US is the majority of people are informed almost entirely by Abrahamic religion. Even those who are atheist or agnostic live in a society heavily influenced by abrahamic religious literature and dogma.
Furthermore, with the possible exception of confucianism, most eastern thought works on an individual level not on a community level.
Communities are informed by cultural, not religious, values and laws in the orient. This is significantly different to what was once the case in the West. While this is not so much true now, there was a time when communities were almost entirely defined by religious association.
For someone who so rigidly espouses eastern thought, I find most of your posts tend to be somewhat adolescent, or at least your demeanor does not always come across as friendly. Your attitude is certainly not in line with my understanding of taoism.
I think we can all benefit if we work to improve discourse here, not tear it down.
I did not feel slighted by this article.Congratulations. However, I'm not sure this post, or my response, was about you.
For someone who so rigidly espouses eastern thought, I find most of your posts tend to be somewhat adolescent, or at least your demeanor does not always come across as friendly.I never espoused Eastern thought, I merely pointed out how limited many people's thinking is for not having included it to begin with. Many of the community here really don't take a wide view -- but rather digest the latest newspaper prose and feel themselves "informed". It's astounding, for example, to find how few here really understand that they are often part of the problem -- not cabals of conspirators, not evil corporations. Propagating a myth of communal unity that invokes a notion of Western "spirituality" -- whatever that is -- helps no one and merely entrenches a myth.
Dragging around dated, old ideas for "tradition" is like trying to apply leeches as a cure. In fact, the leeches can actually help in some cases -- but does that mean you want to make them standard medical procedure?
If you want a more interesting Western point of view on how to deal with the world without religious dogma, might I suggest the writings of Marcus Aurelius?
As far as the "adolescent" and "unfriendly" remarks, I didn't (unlike you) resort to name calling. I am here to discuss ideas. To inform and be informed. Feel free to skip my posts if you don't like them -- not all agree with your sentiments.
And I do maintain, that if a person can't conceive of charity and compassion without "religion" or the promise of heavenly reward or punishing hell after death, then that person is the adolescent.
What I am saying is that her non-inclusion of eastern religious beliefs suddenly makes her argument narrowminded or parochial.
Dude, TheraP is one of the best posters around.
And I was referring more to your comments than your posts of which I have, for the large part, not had the pleasure of reading.
And I fully understand that religious tradition is not needed for the ends you suggest but that has absolutely nothing to do with the article.
Dude, TheraP is one of the best posters around.
And I was referring more to your comments than your posts of which I have, for the large part, not had the pleasure of reading.
And I fully understand that religious tradition is not needed for the ends you suggest but that has absolutely nothing to do with the article.
PS Do please let me know what you find adolescent about, oh say, this post.
Also, here is a koan, which I translated from my copy of the Shaseki-shu:
The student opened the Bible, and read, from St. Matthew, "And why take you thought for rainment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They do not toil, neither do they spin, and yet I say to you that, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Take therefore no care for the next day, for the next day shall take care for the things of itself."
Gasan said to the student, "Whoever said those things I consider enlightened."
The student continued, "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you. For everyone that should ask, receives, and he that should seek, finds, and to those that knock, it shall be opened."
Gasan muttered, "Excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddha."
"No, read it." said Gasan.
A university student was visiting Gasan and asked him, "Have you ever read the Bible of the Christians?"
The student opened the Bible, and read, from St. Matthew, "And why take you thought for rainment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They do not toil, neither do they spin, and yet I say to you that, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Take therefore no care for the next day, for the next day shall take care for the things of itself."
Gasan said to the student, "Whoever said those things I consider enlightened."
The student continued, "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you. For everyone that should ask, receives, and he that should seek, finds, and to those that knock, it shall be opened."
Gasan muttered, "Excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddha."
I think for a westerner I have a pretty good familiarity with world religions. Indeed from childhood I've been fascinated by different religions. What most fascinates me today is the mystics. They are often viewed as heretics within their own religions for deeply following the path of enlightenment (rather than the prescribed rituals). And mystics, of different religions or as in the east it's more like spiritual philosophies, speak to each other of very similar experiences. They urge people to "test" things for themselves, rather than swallow them wholesale. I personally think that meditative practices are very similar in many traditions. And the results, in terms of personality characteristics, are similar too. Just as in your story, enlightened individuals can recognize each other - by word or deed. (For me, one of the most important spiritual insights I ever had was truly experiencing the sound of a bell. Then, I understood "emptiness.")
But all of this is simply a distraction from the point of the post - as you noted from the start!
But all of this is simply a distraction from the point of the post - as you noted from the start!
All do respected, TheraP, my comments are very much at the center of your thesis.
Roughly you claim: people are using religion to divide. Whereas, we should realize that religion teaches us to be inclusive.
My point is that religion shouldn't be used as a mechanism of community definition at all.
Having said that, I will note one last thing: you have very obviously put me on "ignore" weeks ago, despite your obviously reading my posts. I have never had anything but respect for you as a blogger. On the other hand, despite all the general good feelings and sentiments that you post about, you can't bring yourself to apply it to yourself. You choose not to engage me -- that's fine and your right. But I merely note, if you can't "turn the cheek" for a mere blogger on the Internet (and I'm still not sure where I ran afoul of you), then it undermines your arguments about how people should be more open-hearted to others about much more important things.
Roughly you claim: people are using religion to divide. Whereas, we should realize that religion teaches us to be inclusive.
My point is that religion shouldn't be used as a mechanism of community definition at all.
Having said that, I will note one last thing: you have very obviously put me on "ignore" weeks ago, despite your obviously reading my posts. I have never had anything but respect for you as a blogger. On the other hand, despite all the general good feelings and sentiments that you post about, you can't bring yourself to apply it to yourself. You choose not to engage me -- that's fine and your right. But I merely note, if you can't "turn the cheek" for a mere blogger on the Internet (and I'm still not sure where I ran afoul of you), then it undermines your arguments about how people should be more open-hearted to others about much more important things.
Initially, I too held this thought. It seemed to me a bit ironic to read:
Anyhooo, may I humbly suggest you invest more time in a detailed rereading of the post and TheraP's comments. I have reached a conclusion that he/she was referencing his/her own religious experience under the caveat he/she was doing so specifically without excluding non-J/C/M religions. He/She chose those three as an illustrative point to speak from personal experience, and expressly not as a definition to which we were all beholden.
Indeed wells in our Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition were always considered sacred.... and then a few sentences later...
But unless we build upon the sense of social justice so recently renewed in our election of Barack Obama, we are ignoring fissures that will come back to haunt us. So we must find ways to convince minority groups of all kinds to come together. To foster community. To honor human dignity in each person.Ultimately I decided against writing a comment asking about what seemed to be religionopoly in the original post. Naturally I was interested when I saw your comment on this very topic, which so closely mirrored my own initial viewpoint. Though can't really say I was surprised. ;)
Anyhooo, may I humbly suggest you invest more time in a detailed rereading of the post and TheraP's comments. I have reached a conclusion that he/she was referencing his/her own religious experience under the caveat he/she was doing so specifically without excluding non-J/C/M religions. He/She chose those three as an illustrative point to speak from personal experience, and expressly not as a definition to which we were all beholden.
Oddly enough, just before I read your post, dear TheraP, I had just watched a Masterpiece Theatre production called "Filth" about the attempts of one woman in England to force the BBC to censor their shows to omit language and behaviors that she considered indecent. She had considerable success at a time when London was "swinging," and times were changing. Why someone didn't simply tell her to watch the shows she wanted to and turn off the TV when she was offended, I cannot understand. She seemed to feel she was protecting standards of decency for "everybody." Gee, thanks. I guess. How about letting "me" exercise my own discretion?
I've discussed politics several times lately with my very conservative, very Christian older brother, and after watching this program, it because clear to me that the problem is that conservatives often seem to feel that their moral standards that they have arrived at by the practice of their particular religion gives them the right, even the responsibility, to apply to everybody else the rules that they live by. It never seems to occur to them that they can abhor homosexuality in every possible way, yet admit that a homosexual has the right to live their life as they see fit. I would love to have someone who knows the Bible better than I do point me to a passage that commands Christians to control everybody else's behavior.
Abortion, that huge wedge issue is, therefore, not capable of being debated by "pro-life" believers because in their minds it is simply and irrefutably wrong. On that particular item, I pointed out to my brother that whether he and I could ever agree about abortion, he has to admit that the conservatives didn't even try to overturn Roe v. Wade when they had the political might to do so and that the reason they didn't, in my view, is because they would then lose the guilt button that they push in every election, saying if you support that candidate who is pro-choice, then you are going against your religious beliefs and committing a sin.
As I said to my brother, "I know that you and I agree on many things in our hearts, but you're letting this particular belief blind you to the many ways in which you must disagree with conservative ideology BASED on your religious beliefs." It would shock him to his core if I suggested what I truly believe that liberal political beliefs are far closer to the teachings of Christ than conservative principles are.
Anyway, the truth is that until we can open a new dialogue, as Obama is attempting to do, about the ways in which we agree and put to the side those things about which we will never agree, we are condemned to an eternal struggle that only benefits the bigshots and the fatcats who laugh all the way to the bank. "Suckers!"
I've discussed politics several times lately with my very conservative, very Christian older brother, and after watching this program, it because clear to me that the problem is that conservatives often seem to feel that their moral standards that they have arrived at by the practice of their particular religion gives them the right, even the responsibility, to apply to everybody else the rules that they live by. It never seems to occur to them that they can abhor homosexuality in every possible way, yet admit that a homosexual has the right to live their life as they see fit. I would love to have someone who knows the Bible better than I do point me to a passage that commands Christians to control everybody else's behavior.
Abortion, that huge wedge issue is, therefore, not capable of being debated by "pro-life" believers because in their minds it is simply and irrefutably wrong. On that particular item, I pointed out to my brother that whether he and I could ever agree about abortion, he has to admit that the conservatives didn't even try to overturn Roe v. Wade when they had the political might to do so and that the reason they didn't, in my view, is because they would then lose the guilt button that they push in every election, saying if you support that candidate who is pro-choice, then you are going against your religious beliefs and committing a sin.
As I said to my brother, "I know that you and I agree on many things in our hearts, but you're letting this particular belief blind you to the many ways in which you must disagree with conservative ideology BASED on your religious beliefs." It would shock him to his core if I suggested what I truly believe that liberal political beliefs are far closer to the teachings of Christ than conservative principles are.
Anyway, the truth is that until we can open a new dialogue, as Obama is attempting to do, about the ways in which we agree and put to the side those things about which we will never agree, we are condemned to an eternal struggle that only benefits the bigshots and the fatcats who laugh all the way to the bank. "Suckers!"
Jane, the conservative televangelists of Jesus' day were known as Pharisees and Saducees. These Hebrew conservatives and their scribes, who might well be compared to today's wingnut radioheads, were desperate to maintain the status-quo, and not only survive the iron hand of the Romans (The Bushes?) but to profit handsomely by demanding their tithes from the Jews with a promise it would keep them safe under God's umbrella of blessing.
There's little doubt that James Dobson would have considered Jesus a failure as a family man, and something of a dirty hippy who lived on the street, if he met him today without a pre-introduction. The mob the Pharisees used to turn Pilate against Jesus is still at their command, if you don't believe me, watch a rerun of one of Palin's demonic speeches. She almost stirred more than one mob to violence, and that is exactly what the Pharisees did to assure that Jesus, not Barabas, carried His cross to Calvary.
There are many parallels in our current situation to the times of political struggle Jesus lived through. During the early Bush years, when the march to war was clearly determined to be inevitable, regardless of the missing facts, I penned a long sonnet with this line in it: No mortal intervention now can shake them from their wicked plans..."
Now they have so greedily accomplished those wicked plans, maybe a mortal intervention like the election we just had, and the one in 2006, actually IS the answer.
But I wouldn't be surprised to learn one final day that more than one of these modern-day Pharisees found that final gate locked, with a stern St. Peter unwilling to produce the key that would open it.
There's little doubt that James Dobson would have considered Jesus a failure as a family man, and something of a dirty hippy who lived on the street, if he met him today without a pre-introduction. The mob the Pharisees used to turn Pilate against Jesus is still at their command, if you don't believe me, watch a rerun of one of Palin's demonic speeches. She almost stirred more than one mob to violence, and that is exactly what the Pharisees did to assure that Jesus, not Barabas, carried His cross to Calvary.
There are many parallels in our current situation to the times of political struggle Jesus lived through. During the early Bush years, when the march to war was clearly determined to be inevitable, regardless of the missing facts, I penned a long sonnet with this line in it: No mortal intervention now can shake them from their wicked plans..."
Now they have so greedily accomplished those wicked plans, maybe a mortal intervention like the election we just had, and the one in 2006, actually IS the answer.
But I wouldn't be surprised to learn one final day that more than one of these modern-day Pharisees found that final gate locked, with a stern St. Peter unwilling to produce the key that would open it.
I've often wondered, JEP, if the zealotry of conservative christians, agitating for "orthodoxy" on the one hand and social control of sex and/or reproduction on the other hand, mirrors the worst of Paul's legacy. He never quite got over his being a zealot - even though he clearly experienced a conversion from persecuting the followers of Jesus. In my view Paul was a tortured soul. He was a mystic. That's so clear from many of the most beautiful passages. But on the other hand he never quite let go of legalism, which came out more in the form of social rules. So I think the conservatives focus less on the words of Jesus (for example, see komatsu above) and more on the injunctions (as they understand just a few of them!) of Paul.
Parallels between now and the time of Jesus also include imperial Rome! Now, there's a topic someone could to town with!
Parallels between now and the time of Jesus also include imperial Rome! Now, there's a topic someone could to town with!
Beautiful comments, Jane. Well put!
Thera, thank you for a thought-provoking post.
Although I love God with all my heart, I've been very ashamed of my fellow Christians during this election cycle, to the point where I've pretty much quit attending church. Your post reminded me that I need to get back and start practicing the kind of Christianity that would make Christ proud.
Thank you for reminding me.
Although I love God with all my heart, I've been very ashamed of my fellow Christians during this election cycle, to the point where I've pretty much quit attending church. Your post reminded me that I need to get back and start practicing the kind of Christianity that would make Christ proud.
Thank you for reminding me.
I think we are all recovering from shame related to what our nation has done and shame for what has been done in the name of religion. Your comments are very insightful and inspiring as well.
My wife is a Christian too. Prop8 has driven a wedge between her and her faith community (she's Catholic) as she struggles to forgive them.
And I think at some level that's the cruelest thing: that my beloved is forced to a crisis of faith by the religion that nurtured her and has meant so much to her throughout her life.
Oh, but now it's "let bygones be bygones, we can still be friends." Not when you hurt us like that, we can't. I'm not Christian. I don't forgive them for this spiritual violence.
And I think at some level that's the cruelest thing: that my beloved is forced to a crisis of faith by the religion that nurtured her and has meant so much to her throughout her life.
Oh, but now it's "let bygones be bygones, we can still be friends." Not when you hurt us like that, we can't. I'm not Christian. I don't forgive them for this spiritual violence.
Dear IT. Lovely to see your comment here. I refer you to stillidealistic's post below where you can see how much she is also struggling with. She also posted a comment and query on your blog. I think you two could have a fruitful discussion. See her post here:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/stillidealistic/2008/11/culture-wars-and-labels.php
I have such compassion for where your wife is coming from. Indeed, I think all of us who feel deeply "dogged" by God (I have no other word for it!) are torn between the inner tug, which is so strong and vital, and the outer institution, which betrays the God who meets us from within. And there you are, caught in her conflict, because you love each other, and both of you caught in this culture war, which is engulfing all of us in various ways. I'm just going to quote something I wrote on that blog to someone else. Partly to save it here. And partly because I think it well explains where I'm coming from. It's in answer to a question by someone:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/stillidealistic/2008/11/culture-wars-and-labels.php
I have such compassion for where your wife is coming from. Indeed, I think all of us who feel deeply "dogged" by God (I have no other word for it!) are torn between the inner tug, which is so strong and vital, and the outer institution, which betrays the God who meets us from within. And there you are, caught in her conflict, because you love each other, and both of you caught in this culture war, which is engulfing all of us in various ways. I'm just going to quote something I wrote on that blog to someone else. Partly to save it here. And partly because I think it well explains where I'm coming from. It's in answer to a question by someone:
There are two sides to me (of course, more than 2!). And my profession really bridges both. There's a spiritual side and a social side. You could say I'm interested in political psychology on the one hand and therapy/psychology as a dimension of the spirit (a sort of intermingling) on the other hand. So the [Dignity, Hospitality, Community] post was an attempt to argue with the religiously conservative folks, who are the "base" of the culture war on the right. If you don't take them on in terms of religion, there's no way to reach them - because that's where they're coming from. Whether it's an "excuse" for the bigotry or a rationalization (which is an unconscious excuse) or whether they just don't think for themselves but follow their religious leaders, I really can't say.And of course it cuts both ways. Because it is undermining the church as well as the state!
But from a moral perspective and a social and political perspective, I see this effort to "control" loving relationships, in the service of religion, as a threat to both civil rights and our separation of church and state. I see it cutting at the heart of our republic. At the ideals we stand for. At our effort to form a "more perfect union." At the base and foundation of our aspirations for each person to be valued and allowed to pursue happiness.
I'm collecting "hospitable" quotes here:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/do-you-have-to-knock-them-over.php#comment-3001818
And this whole thread has worthy quotes:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom/2008/12/nothingness.php
And this thread is nothing but hospitable:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/stillidealistic/2008/12/this-odd-little-family.php
And this one too:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/barefoot/2008/12/who-were-you-as-a-kid.php
(these are just some I'm "saving" like photos in a scrapbook)
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/do-you-have-to-knock-them-over.php#comment-3001818
And this whole thread has worthy quotes:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom/2008/12/nothingness.php
And this thread is nothing but hospitable:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/stillidealistic/2008/12/this-odd-little-family.php
And this one too:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/barefoot/2008/12/who-were-you-as-a-kid.php
(these are just some I'm "saving" like photos in a scrapbook)
Hospitality - for a shaman - after hers for them:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/quinn_esq/2008/12/12000-years-ago-12-miles-from.php
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/quinn_esq/2008/12/12000-years-ago-12-miles-from.php
Lux Extraordinaire:
The Wind on the Bear Tooth Plateau
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/mr_beebers/2008/10/the-wind-on-the-beartooth-plat.php
This one too: The Great Community -
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/mr_beebers/2008/11/the-great-community.php
The Wind on the Bear Tooth Plateau
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/mr_beebers/2008/10/the-wind-on-the-beartooth-plat.php
This one too: The Great Community -
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/mr_beebers/2008/11/the-great-community.php
We may need to compile a book:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/oleeb/2008/12/does-knowing-you-die-affect-ho.php#comment-3314676
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/oleeb/2008/12/does-knowing-you-die-affect-ho.php#comment-3314676
Here's a link that discusses some of this. Just putting this here so I can refer to it in future:
http://jintoku.blogspot.com/2009/02/some-thoughts-on-unity-and-division.html?showComment=1234828260000#comment-c2325326124612061079
http://jintoku.blogspot.com/2009/02/some-thoughts-on-unity-and-division.html?showComment=1234828260000#comment-c2325326124612061079
Hi TheraP. I came over from Tobias Haller's blog. In the Middle East today, hospitality is still of prime importance. Alas, many of us who call ourselves Christians here in the US have lost sight of that vital part of our faith.
Your post is spot on. Thanks for leaving the link at Tobias' place.
Your post is spot on. Thanks for leaving the link at Tobias' place.
Wow, I only just caught this comment, Grandmere. Thanks for all you do - in the service of the virtues extolled in this blog. And others, of course. :-)
